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Talk:Selvetarm
In the novel Condemnation Selvetarm appears "clutching an armory of swords and maces in its six thickly muscled arms, and each of its chitinous legs ended in a vicious pincerlike claw. His face, perversely enough, was that of a handsome drow male." (chapter 20) should this multi-armed bipedal form be mentioned? Doonval ti bekk'har (talk) 02:12, August 30, 2013 (UTC) :Sure, that would go under Manifestations. Feel free to try putting it in. — BadCatMan (talk) 11:37, August 30, 2013 (UTC) Question About the scene, where it is discovered, that Lolth organized Selvetarm's death. What part about it, actually left doubt, that she actually did so? Saya222 (talk) 16:30, March 26, 2017 (UTC) :To me it seemed more that Lolth was willing to sacrifice Selvetarm, than actually wanting to lose him. Supposedly, by losing Selvetarm she took a big risk, because she wanted to let Eilistraee take her other adversaries, but it was indeed a big risk. ::In my opinion, keeping Selvetarm alive would have been more dangerous than dead. His followers were rebellious in “Sacrifice of the Widow“. They were filling their ranks, casually killed Lolth’s priestesses and maintained cordial relationships with right-wing members of Vhaeraun’s church, if not with Selvetarm’s support at least with his tolerance, keeping the grandson alive would have been like keeping a plateworm in her stomach. After all, Lolth was really happy over Selvetarm’s followers not only “coming back“ but asking to be allowed to come back to her. :::Yeah, Selvetargtlins were getting annoying, but with their low numbers, and with Selvetarm still being her champion, their god could have still been a useful tool for Lolth. Even with the dices that you mention below--Lolth simply took a big risk, because she could have rid of Eilistraee instead of letting Selvetarm die. She let Eilistraee keep playing, supposedly to use her against her other foes, but her plan basically consisted of sacrificing Selvetarm in order to miss a surefireway to get her daughter out of the way, in the hope that she could take care of the rest of the Dark Seldarine for her. It doens't seem a smart or "I had calculated everything from the get go" plan to me, tbh (see also below). There's another simple fact going against it: if Lolth had considered the church of Selvetarm a threat of any kind, and if killing Selvetarm had been her soultion to it, she--a *greater* deity--could have killed him in matter of seconds and with extreme ease (I mean, he even lives with her, in her same plane, so there would be 0 trouble in reaching him and killing him), instead of letting Eilistraee go on and still play. Things simply don't add up--Tsammarco (talk) 18:21, March 27, 2017 (UTC) ::::Lolth’s goal wasn’t “kill Selvetarm“ or “kill Eilistraee“, it was “kill the Dark Seldarine, save her“. A character trait of Lolth is “seemingly mad moves but done with incredible foresight“, If she allowed Eilistraee to get killed by Selvetarm, and the Selvetargtlin were close at taking the Promenade, she would have been forced to fight the rest by herself by putting herself at risk and expending her own resources. Selvetarm’s only asset for Lolth was his absolute obedience, when that became shaky, he had no value. Letting Eilistraee clear the dissent in her church, if Lolth had it done herself, it would have been difficult to take her grandson’s church. At the same time she planted two moles, Halisstra an ally nobody under Eilistraee doubted, and Wendonai in the sword. Which till the end, influenced her daughter’s church’s actions. :She couldn't know, for example, that Eilistraee would have defeated Vhaeraun (odds are actually against Eilistraee in such a conflict), she only later learned about Vhaeraun's plan, and she couldn't have known that Eilistraee wouldn't have tried to save Selvetarm (if Finder can resist Moander's corruption, then Selvetarm can be freed from Zanassu in theory). ::Out of Corellon’s three children, Vhaeraun is probably the one who inherited the least from him. Part of the charme playing one of his follower is, that the god is so weak, enough to lose against his son who couldn’t even maintain a steady church. Furthermore, a god fighting on its own terrain is at a huge advantage, that was why it was deemed a given, that Eilistraee would win a frontal fight, and the necessity of Qilue’s warning, as well why Eilistraee’s propaganda machinery claimed Eilistraee fought on Ellaniath and not on Arvandor. The information flow from Malvag to Qilue was Halisstra captured Malvag, dangled him before Cavatina, Cavatina killed him, freed the soul he stored, said soul was revived, and Qilue learned the information was able to warn Eilistraee, while Halisstra was capable of buying Cavatina’s and Qilue’s trust. :::That has little to do with what I meant (also, I didn't know Corellon had a third children, is that also true in the Realms, or is it part of the 4e general lore?). As I said, from what I understood, Lolth wanted Eilistraee to rid her of other deities, so she let her live, but sacrificed Selvetarm for that. However, Eilistraee was one of the least likely deities to succeed at that. Not only that, Lolth's act of giving away Selvetarm would have paid off only if: :::1)Vhaeraun attacked Eilistraee in the most stupid way possible, which is also out of his character--even more so because he'd be much more likely to try a temporary cooperation in such a situation. His plan was also very unlike him. Does this: "Hey, lets try to waste resources in an attempt to charge into *effing Arvandor* in order to kill my sister, so her followers will be united with mine (hint: things would have been much mroe complicated than that) and we will take down Lolth" sound like a plan worthy of Vhaeraun to you? I really like Vhaeraun too, and was very disappointed with how Smedman handled it. But then, the whole series was a huge disappointment, so whatever. ::::The plan was an extremely long-term plan that involved posing as Eilistraee and nudging her followers’ actions until they are someday so close until revealing himself wouldn’t have been much of an obstacle to them. Given the portrayal of Eilistraee’s clergy, this actually sounded not stupid, but I too think that it was very unlike Vhaeraun for the entire plan was risky to the point of irresponsible. ::::If gods wanted an alliance they meet in Cynosure or open a normal gate to Arvandor, not one that allowed stealthy intrusion and even less one powered with souls of the potential ally’s followers’ souls. The entire trilogy’s purpose was to kill the Dark Seldarine, so making characters act intentionally stupid, irresponsible or out of character is a given in such stories, though I liked that gate, it’s the only time to my knowledge, Elven High Magic wasn’t used as a plot bomb, except the reveal in the second book of course. :::2)Kiaransalee also randomly decided to attack Eilistraee rather than settling her grudges with Lolth (because otherwise the followers of Eilistraee wouldn't have attacked those of Kiaransalee). :::::Which attack do you mean? Are you referring to the one that attacked Kâras? :::Those were all things that had little chance of happening, and that Lolth relied on in order to make her sacrifice of Selvetarm worthy. That's why I said that Lolth's plan in losing Selvetarm wasn't calculated, but a huge risk (on a side note, I don't recall any propaganda that it was Eilistraee to attack Vhaeraun on Ellaniath. Also, Eilistraee is likely weaker than Vhaeraun, going by number of followers, which is most of what determine--I mean, she is on the lower end of the possible range of divine rank values for a lesser power).--Tsammarco (talk) 18:21, March 27, 2017 (UTC) ::::About the propaganda, Kâras was sent away to assassinate Valdar, because he knew the truth. “Eilistraee is massively stronger than Vhaeraun“ was the advertisement campaign of Eilistraee’s church. Q’arlynd was also confronted with this, given the barely veiled threat and information that the church of Eilistraee was willing to murder or bribe those who knew the truth. He found it quite funny, though and complied to work with them. :Besides, Vhaeraun--given his character as described in DD--wouldn't be likely to charge headstrong into Arvandor trying to kill his sister; he is actually more likely to propose a temporary cooperation to her to defeat Lolth (in DD it is said that he is very well capable of putting hostilities aside when it comes to kill his mother), and IMO things would have gone like that, if Lisa Smedman and Phil Athans had respected even a little the actual lore of the characters. So, she would have found not only Eilistraee, but Eilistraee+Vhaeraun against her. It was indeed just a huge risk taken by Lolth, and then she claimed that things went as intended. Hope this clarifies--Tsammarco (talk) 23:28, March 26, 2017 (UTC) ::I need to apologize. I completely forgot, that you already told me, that you didn’t own the books anymore. I'm sorry, the quoted scene is the one in which Lolth cheats in plain sight during rolling some dice. Eilistraee asks for the judge, Ao, who then says that Lolth gave Eilistraee loaded dice to guarantee that she would win her roll, killing Selvetarm, and explained this as the reason why it Lolth wasn’t cheating and her roll was valid. If the metaphor was taken out, she organized things for Eilistraee to kill Selvetarm, by putting her acknowledged champion, Wendonai, and her Chosen, Halisstra, as aid for Cavatina. ::I think, she had things quite under control from the beginning to the end. ::Saya222 (talk) 13:27, March 27, 2017 (UTC) :::She hadn't, for the very reasons that I talked about above. As I said, it was a big risk that played out in her favor, 'cause of plot armor and disregard for the lore on the author's side.--Tsammarco (talk) 18:21, March 27, 2017 (UTC) ::::Well again, the trilogy’s purpose was to get rid of the other Dark Seldarine members. As mentioned above, a running theme with Lolth is “seemingly mad moves that are based on immense foresight“, the bottomline of the trilogy was “the Dark Seldarine was dead“ with “no expenditure of Lolth’s own resources“ while “having a hand in every demise“. Only Ghaunadaur by secretly being very strong was a surprise to her. ::::Saya222 (talk) 15:05, March 28, 2017 (UTC) :::::Your make a few valid points, but again, what I said still stands. In order for Selvetarm's sacrifice to be worthy, and for Lolth's plan to work, very unlikely things would have needed to happen. She sacrificed Selvetarm because she was sure that she wouldn't have had to expose herself, because Eilistraee would have defeated the rest of the Dark Seldarine, that the rest of the Dark Seldarine would have focused their hostility on Eilistraee, and that Vhaeraun would have acted very unlike him. But that was the same as relying on one of the most unlikely of the outcomes, and was a nonsensical course of action, if compared to instantaneously getting rid of Eilistraee (therefore making the act of planting Wendonai within her church to get at her daughter pointless) and Selvetarm--if she really wanted to (IIRC, Selvetarm himself wasn't getting overly rebellious, and if Lolth had killed him personally--which would have taken 0 resources and effort on her side, because of what I said before--how would mortals know that it was Lolth to kill Selvetarm? She could have even easily put up a facade and blamed Vhaeraun, just to make an example). :::::As for the rest of the Dark Seldarine, you said that she didn't want to be exposed, so she relied on Eilistraee, but: :::::1)Kiaransalee represented no real threat to Lolth, she never had. :::::2)Vhaeraun was--and is--a threat to her, but relying on Eilistraee to kill him was flat out stupid, especially because--as I said--squandering resources against someone who isn't the real enemy isn't a very Vhaeraun-esque thing to do. He would have tried to get a temporary cease fire with his sister IMO. His plan to try to kill her through that portal was very unlikely to be actually acted on or even formulated, because it was reckless to the point of stupidity, and because--once again--it isn't Vhaeraun's character to focus on lesser enemies when he can persuade them against Lolth (and with Eilistraee that's a very concrete possibility, as she doesn't even hate her brother, she is more saddened by his action). So Lolth relied on her son doing something that he would have hardly done in order for her plan to work, which is why again she didn't have the situation under control. :::::3)Ghaunadaur could have been a threat, but Eilistraee played no role against him, as she didn't damage him in the slightest. :::::So, in short, by losing Selvetarm she took a huge blind risk, and stuff went her way. Yes, it was the purpose of those novels, but it was badly implemented, and doesn't change the fact that in the story Lolth was merely willing to sacrifice Selvetarm to take that big risk, rather than being in control of the situation for the whole time. That's why I said that she claims merits that don't belong to her--Tsammarco (talk) 15:36, March 28, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Thank you for the explanation, edited it back. ::::::Saya222 (talk) 19:37, March 28, 2017 (UTC)